Inteview with

[AGP] Do you have limitions to whom you work with? Can you work with Adventists?

[WILLOW CREEK] We do not have any limitation on who we may work with in the "Christian" community in declaring the name of Jesus to the nations and his saving grace.

[AGP] Can you explain your stance towards Adventists?

[WC] You may or may not know that since the mid-1950s the Evangelical community, following the lead of Dr. Walter Martin,took a different stand concerning the work of Seventh-day Adventists. Previous to this, for several reason, the faith community to which you belong had been considered a "cult." I believe that this designation had primarily to do with your acceptance of the writings of Ellen G. White as having the same weight as a Biblical prophet. Since her work is of a more recent vintage, the net effect was that for the Adventist community, her word became God's final word in much the same way as Mohammad's word became for the Muslimsand Joseph Smith's became for Mormons. After protestations by your leaders that the Bible is indeed the final word of authority in your community of faith, Dr. Martin recommended that the designation of "cult" be removed from our communities understanding of who the Seventh-day Adventist church is. I think that we at Willow along with other evangelicals have been faithful to Dr. Martin's lead, in spite of the fact that Seventh-day Adventists have continued to designate the rest of the church, including those of us who consider ourselves Evangelical, as being "apostate" and "fallen" and part of the "Babylon" symbol depicted in Revelation 14 & 18. I believe this is still standard fare in your "evangelical" meetings.This violates the spirit of the "understanding" that your leaders came to with Dr. Martin. All this is part of the public record as published in Eternity Magazine, during the editorship of Dr. Barnhouse. It received wide acceptance through the publication of Dr. Martin's book, "The Truth about Seventh-day Adventists." In the SDA community the book "Questions on Doctrine" was published by the denomination to explain your unique views in the light of that agreement.

[AGP] Do you think we have 'conservative viewpoints towards?

[WC]As I understand it, your convictions on this point, that all the churches outside of Adventism is Babylon,is rooted in your history.

For about ten years before the "great disappointment" on October 22, 1844 a member of our community, William Miller, began preaching the "soon" return of Christ.There never was any conflict with evangelical Christians over the "truth" of Jesus' return. The New Testamentis quite explicit on that point. Where we parted company with Miller was over the setting of a date for his return. Although he was untrained as an expositor of the word, farming being his original vocation, thousands in our community believed the message he was teaching to be true.Among them were some highly respected members of our ministry. He first taught that Jesus would return in the spring of 1843. When that did not happen, he discovered a "mistake" of one year in his interpretation and reset the date for the spring of 1844. In the winter of that year a member of our communitywho was a believer in Miller's message, concluded and published his findings that the return of Jesus would be in the fall rather than the spring of '44. His namewas S. S. Snow. When Jesus did not return in the spring of '44 the findings of Snow took on much greater weight and developed into what is known in your community as the "Midnight Cry." The details of that history is easily available to you through the work of F. D. Nichols, one of your writers and editor of your church paper in the 1950's. Nichols wrote a book by the name of "The Midnight Cry." You no doubt are acquainted with it. Part of the message Snow brought to the Adventists (you were not at that time Sabbatarian) was that because of the reaction many of us had against the time setting that Miller and his associates were putting forward, we should be designated as Babylon. This designation of Babylon seemed especially appropriate to your community when our reaction took the form of "disfellowshiping" those who were agitating the definite time for Christ's return. The confusion and disappointment was great. The net result was that the associates of Miller gave what is known in your history as the "loud cry." There was an identity made between the "midnight cry" of the parable of the virgins and the "loud cry" of Revelation to come out of Babylon. So thousands of people left our community of faith to identify with what now was becoming the "Adventist" community. If my understanding is correct concerning the history, at that time, your designation of the churches from which you came as Babylon had nothing to do with any observance of the Sabbath.The promotion of the Sabbathcame later through the influence of Rachael Oaks, another member of our community, a Sabbatarian, who unwittingly assisted Joseph Bates in a redefinition of why the "fallen churches" should continue to be designated as Babylon. She never became a Seventh-day Adventist. The Sabbath issuewas not introduced into your community until 1848, four years after Snow's prediction concerning Oct. 22, 1844 had failed.

Snow went on to teach that he was "Elijah" the prophet prophecied in Malachai. His message after '44 was that the "event" that was to happen in '44 was not the return of Christ, but the "cleansing of the church." So the prophet of the "Midnight Cry," whom the Seventh-day Adventist community would later insist was speaking for God in the summer of '44 came to nothing among those who later called themselves Seventh-day Adventists.

It appears the eclipse of Snow's influence among those who held to the truth of the Midnight Cryhappened because another "prophet" named Ellen Harmon was beginning to exercise influence in that community. It appears that her charismatic "gift" was not singular though in that community. Other visionaries appeared for a short time including Hirim Edison. His cornfield "vision" on October 23 concerning the entry of Jesus into the "most holy" place of the heavenly sanctuary became normative for the community of Adventist that eventually became the Seventh-day Adventist church. The record from your publications at the time indicates that he also "spoke in tongues" and had it interpreted. This "tongues" incident even over ruled Ellen Harmon's influence in regards to "Bro. Rhodes" whom she had given up as hopeless. He had fallen off the path leading to the Eternal city and she thought according to her vision, could not be redeemed. He was the first recorded exception to herunderstanding of herfirst vision. In the printed record of the "trial" of one of their community by the name of Israel Damon, there were several who were exercising "charismatic gifts."

It seems thatEllen Harmon'sassociation with the views of Joseph Bates, a retired sea captin, not known for any charismatic gifts or expository skills, who intorduced the Sabbatarian views among the Adventists, raised her influence in the group to a new level. Healso was promoting the view that Jesus would return to earth in 1851 based on his interpretation of the sprinkling of blood "seven times" on the ark of the testament in the typical day of Atonement service. He believed thatsince a time equaled a year in Miller's prophetic interpretation, the seven times equaled seven years that the atonement wouldgo on in the heavenly sanctuaryin the Most Holy place for thoseAdventists who entered with Jesus by faith throughobservance of the Sabbath.1851 came and went as you know without the advent occuring. The "Sabbath Conferences" of '48 and '49 that established the basic arguements for Sabbath observance were aimed at advancing that doctrine among the "shut door" people. It was not aimed at the larger Christian community. That community you had already concluded had fallen from grace (apostacy) because of their rejection of the setting of a definite time for the Lord's return.

Ellen Harmon's marriage to James White, who published her "visions" along with the new emphasis on the Sabbath also widened her influence in the group.James seems to have had a degree of business sense which made the promotion of Ellen Harmon White's views profitable. Had it not been for this turn of events her "visions" may have been lost to the world just like that of Snow.

The disappointment of '45, according to T. D. Mann in his letter, dated December 28 of that year,to the editorof "The Day Star" , cut the group in half. (This issue of "The Day Star" was the same onein whichEllen Harmon's first vision was published. Itseems to have been there presented in support of a new date or time for the return of Christ.) T. D. Mann was advocating that Jesus would return in the Jubilee year which he proposed began in the fall of '45 and would be completed the following fall. He anticipated that Jesus would return sometime during that year. His arguements are quite complex and I do not have the time to explain them here but of course his predictions failed as well. He advised "Bro. Jacobs" whowas the editor of "The Day Star" not to have fellowship with anyone who did not hold this view. It may be accidental that "Bro. Jacobs" printedMann's letter concerning the Jubilee Year and Ellen Harmon's first vision (claimed to have been given her almost a year earlier) sent to him as a letterin the same issue of the Day Star dated January 24, 1846. In this "vision" she claims that the angel told them the "day and hour" of the coming of the Lord. That date was not stated in the "vision" but that the information was available to the saints. In this regard, it should be remembered that according to one witness who held her head when she went off into one of her "visions" stated thatEllen Harmonhad set a date for the return of Jesus in the spring of '45. Ellen White later denied this report but in the light of the evidence available today the denial does not seem credible. So the vision no doubt had already been used in support of an earlier date. Now it is submitted to "bro. Jacobs" for print seemingly in support of the Jubilee theory.

It must be remembered that at the time the "Sabbath" was introduced among those who eventually became the Seventh-day Adventist Church, they still clung to the"midnightcry" doctrine which included the teaching that on October 22, 1844 all hope of salvation for those outside the"adventist community" was past. The door of mercy was shut forever. Ellen Harmon's (White) first visions were "given" specifically to support the "shut door" viewand to encourage the "believers" to hold on to their faith in what came to be known as the "seventh month movement" or "midnight cry." The introduction of the Sabbath among theadventists was primarily seen as a "final test" among Adventists as to who would remain loyal to theiradvent hope. It was never originally seen as a test for the "lost" world outside of their group. That may explain why Rachel Oaks never joined their number. Theymay not of viewedher as a candidate even though she had "introduced" them to the Sabbath.

Let me speak concerning Rachael Oaksfor just a moment in a way that may be instructive for you in regard to why we may feel at ease in working with those who are seventh day Sabbatarians. I presume you are aware that the Seventh-day Baptists have been in existence for a lot longer than the Seventh-day Adventists, and have also been part of the Evangelical church.We also work in association with churches that are advocates of a Sunday Sabbatarian views. Although ourfaith community is very respectful of the Calvinisticpart of the reformation, who like theSDAs have a stronger afinity to the continuity of thelaw given at Sinai than those who identify more strongly with the Luthern tradition, we do not make observance of the Sabbath (however viewed) anissue to be argued over in our faith community.We could have embraced Rachael Oaks just as we may embrace you, if you allow it. But we are well aware that "Christian charity" is hard to receive from someone that you have already decided is an apostate. That is an issue that we can not decide for you. But obviously it is very important to you as a factor in your decision whether to have fellowship and actively engage in evangelical efforts with us at Willow Creek.

Having said that, I have heard several sermons since becoming a participating member here at Willow Creek that highlighted the importance of the rest that is promoted in the Sabbath commandment. One of our teaching pastor's while emphasizing the need for "rest" on a regular weekly basis widened the application of the Sabbath to include those times of intimate reflection that we have with God whenever that may happen. He did not quote this verse but at the time I thought it was appropriate, "Today, if ye hear his voice, harden not your heart." The rest that our Lord invites us to enter that is symbolized by the seventh-day Sabbath may be entered by faith at any time that we respond to the call of the Spirit to "rest" our hopes in Jesus. This is the Sabbath that "remains" to the people of God. I have here diverged for a moment and given you a peak into my personal convictions on the subject. But as a church we are respectful of those who hold a more rigid view as well as those do not think it an issue at all. Here the advise of the apostle Paul given in different circumstances, in Romans 14 we believe is appropriate. "Let everyone be persuaded in his own mind."What we do believe is outside the realm of private opinion is the call of Jesus to "Come unto me all ye that are weak and heavy laden, and I will give you rest." That is the good news that the Father sent the Son into the world to deliver. .

[AGP] So you don't have any objections for working with Adventists?

[WC] On the other hand, and this may vary from congregation to congregation among the SDA churches, if the "gospel" you preach is the observance of a day, we have nothing in common. We, with the apostle Paul, would conclude that you have a "heteros" gospel, that is in fact no gospel at all. Some of you may have to decide a larger question. Is Sabbath observance the seal of God or isthe sealthe reception of the Spirit as explained by the apostle Paul? It was the assessment of Dr. Walter Martin back in the '50s that the Seventh-day Adventist church should be considered a gospel faith community. The evangelical community concurred then and we stand in that tradition for now.

We are not unaware that there is a struggle going on in your faith community today that touches on the definition of what the gospel is all about. The reformation doctrine of "righteousness by faith" has long been a subject of discussion for you and how that doctrine should be understood in the light of your views on the uniquely SDA doctrine of the "investigative judgment." We are aware of what adifferent "leadership" did in defrocking Dr. Desmond Ford over these issues. He spoke to our community some years ago. We were disappointed of course that your leadership seemed to have rejected this faithful witness of the Gospel in spite of his "faithful" (in your eyes) Sabbatarian views.But we live in hope that this does not represent the final word in your community either on those subjects of faith or on your participation with the larger Christian community in the work of revealing Jesus to the nations.